Respect and the Single Eidolon (very long and rambling)

Illithidbix · Respect and the Single Eidolon (very long and rambling)

Been having conversations with Theresa a lot about the perceived lack of respect (partially IC, but often OC) relating to Eidolons. This sometimes seems to extend into downright hostility towards the very concept of eidolons.

It's been raised by many of us on rule7 on this thread (http://forums.rule7.co.uk/Topic22177-37-1.aspx and a while back on pagga http://www.pagga.net/cgi-bin/vBulletin_v3/showthread.php?t=12200

I think there are many reasons for this.

Familiarity breeds contempt.
My first suspicion is that due to 3 years of extensive player interaction Eidolons are no longer the mysterious and scary creatures they originally where, their racial secrets are now, at least partially in the player domain and fairly widely known. In particular their very real limitations.

I can remember when I was young (i.e 20) and Maelstorm was new and I attended Augeration was my first LARP event and all the Eidolons where terrifying but then I was scared of the Samurai badgers, the Undead Mercenaries, the identical wasps as they strode around in a massive swarm and all those pirates we where camped next to in the independent glade.
At the second event, I witnessed Flail's continual attacks upon someone who pissed him off (I think it was my “predecessor”), people where shouting about how there must be a theurge nearby continually calling him back and I was awed by both how awesome and scary it was.
At the third event (sausagefest) I started playing Varas, got to run around yelling “Eidolons!” a lot and there observed Flail and co repeatedly charging the combined ranks of the DNF, Pietzkreig and Bakers Dozen as a parting gift at the end of the event.
In short, I really did have the fear and respect for Eidolons. I believe the only one I actually had a conversation with was Hawthorn (who told me my job didn't exist, which didn't go down well).

In the second year I think people gradually got more clued up to the capacities of Eidolons, as well as the fact that many mortal characters came more and more competent as they gained skills.
In the third year, the Eidolon wars became something of a spectator sport, and something of a joke, it became rather obvious that the combat abilities of Eidolons are inherently limited. This is of course hinted at quite clearly in the main rules, however it became more and more obvious in play (to me certainly). Perhaps this caused the problem, no matter how immortal you are, if you're repeatedly faced with a force both larger and more powerful than you and whom is specifically geared towards most efficiently splatting you.
At that precise time Lies turned people's expectation and “knowledge” of the power and limitations of the loyal completely upon it's head.

And so as Players see more and more of eidolons and what the can/cannot do, the mystery goes away.
Now with The Book of Varas (aka “An idiots guide to daemons and how to smite them”) written and quite widely distributed, and I do worry that despite the effort I make it cool and IC, that it does explain the exact capacities of Eidolons and what the best methods of fighting them are. Whilst this was the precise intent, I worry that it will only serve to dilute the mystery of the Eidolon.

I do wonder if certain levels of Priest Skills and Theurgy will empower eidolons with many new and exciting powers (I know a few interesting things already), however that is probably more the province of Undead.

The second issue is the Crap player problem.
This is something I have to admit I encountered a lot in the second year, and had more than a few rants to my mates about it. For every well roleplayed loyal out there, there where a bunch of complete incompetents at the loyal Eidolon meetings. These really didn't come across as players roleplaying incompetent characters, but instead players really trying to play them competently but failing.
(Remember that one you attending when you first started playing Lies, Bacon?) I recall from these the terms “riftshits” and “the cresh” where coined.

One example was some poor guy who I think attended his first LARP event, turned up as an Eidolon with a trenchcoat and batleth, kept dropping out of character to ask about certain issues etc
He then started the above pagga thread about not getting enough respect from the faithful...

However, I have to say I have found this less and less problematic, possibly because I now avoid speaking to the Angels I deem incompetent (and occasionally send the Merchant bad reports about them). More and more of the new Eidolons I've met are in one way or another competent, and a lot of the ones who aren't obviously useful are still very cool characters. However I think the legacy of the few who didn't make it still clings to the reputation of eidolons everywhere.

This ties in with the third reason:
High Standards
Essentially, Eidolons of all breeds are held to higher standards of kit, roleplay and charisma. Unless you come across as badass you become an object of ridicule.

The trouble is, if an Eidolon isn't roleplayed particularly well, then it is very noticeable, where as with a generic Free Islander, it wouldn't be a problem. A unimaginative pirate character isn't going to draw as much irritation as someone who's meant to be a divine messenger of the Gods and who has missions where he speaks with their authority.

Some of this does actually result in genuine IC change in reactions.
The fact that you've been taught by Millennial of Church Dogma that Eidolons are infallible Holy Messengers of the Gods, will kinda dissolve if more than half the ones you meet turn out to be complete idiots. If Eidolons are played as idiots, then player led plot dictates they will become the IC assumption will become that Eidolons (particularly the loyal) are often stupid.

Lammiehumpers vs Muggerwocks, the eternal battle
The fourth, is perhaps the fact that there is a substantial number of the player base who don't seem very happy with the idea of a bunch of immortals wandering around with the capacity to kill people.

Using my extensive philosophy training I will create a wonderful strawman argument and now divide all Maelstrom players into one of two categories based on their play styles: Muggerwocks and LammieHumpers.
Both sides include mostly very good and enthusiastic roleplayers who put effort into developing their characters, kits etc. Basically everything Maelstrom is credited for.

LammieHumpers are generally involved in the quieter parts of the Colony and Trading game, and as a rule avoid combat unless absolutely necessary, they believe the path to power is a slow grind of progressing up tech trees, exchanging and trading resources and information (cleverly ensuring you get always get the better deal), generally being cagey with the secrets you know and ensuring you get a decent risk analysis before making any significant acts etc. They frankly expect not to suffer character death since they believe that being cautious gives them control.
This behavior of course demonstrates that they so touch themselves at night with their lammies and make a nest out of them.

Muggerwocks are more likely to be in the more aggressive colony game, a Native, the militant church game or of course an Eidolon. Muggerwocks believe in direct action even if it's probably going to get them into trouble, even if they're not necessarily combat characters, they'll play characters who'll provoke conflict one way or another (even if they are constantly debilitated and only have one arm)
They would of course play a character who takes risks often for little gain, expect to die and when they do they comeback as another conflict driven character, caring little for the loss of well earnt skills, resources and lammies.
Hence they will of course shiv up characters for little reason, and return with another character and do it again if their characters get caught.

With it's combination of player led, power in the hands of PC's, detailed background and cultures laden with prejudices and opportunities for conflict, alongside a detailed and comprehensive downtime system, massive tech trees and a working resource-based dynamic economy with four different currencies.
Maelstrom Caters very very well for both styles of play

However there are potential problems when both styles of play interact. The lammiehunters get pissed off when their carefully arranged and organized nest of lammies get trampled by a rampaging muggerwock, and the muggerwock gets frustrated by the lammiehunters utter refusal to go out and do anything either alongside or against them. It's not necessarily a case that both styles of play are utterly incompatible in the same but there is potentially friction.

An Eidolon of course is the very antithesis of the Lammiehumper's philosophy, no income, no use for almost any type of technology, building or resource. However they are immortal, have instant backstory conflict, a brief that requires them to go out and interact around this conflict and on top of this they are immortal! Basically a muggerwock's wet dream either to be or to fight against. When a Eidolon gets in the way of a lammiehumper group, they're likely to get frustrated by the fact that all their carefully collected combat ming fails to deal with the problem (as it would against everything else, bar perhaps undead)

Lots of Church groups (even those of inherent Muggerwock mindset) seem to have tried hitting the Fallen a few times, got scared when they came back and so retreated, adopted the lammiehumper approach and started progressing up the Theurgy and Priest Skills tech tree, hoping for a magic banishment bullet to stop them. They have of course been met with little success.
Probably because the method and tools required to effectively fight the fallen are already out there, and frankly not very secret, it's merely it involves a significant amount of hard work, and the Fallen who are well aware of their own weaknesses and done their best to compensate them and making it as hard as possible for them to be exploited.
And of course because their opponents haven't been doing anything, the Fallen (and most specifically Flail and his friends) managed to get into a stronger, and stronger position, probably more so than PD ever expected a group of Fallen to achieve.

Hence having found the sit back and wait attitude not being very fruitful, and the fact that slapping the Eidolons with their ming doesn't work, many lammiehumpers got frustrated. Then they found the near-perfect solution: Don't host with a ritual site. Without having to do anything, they had suddenly made the Fallen and undead muggerwock's lives so much harder as it greatly impeded upon their respawning abilities. Eventually most of the Fallen and undead retire out of simply not being able to play their characters in uptime.
However from an IC perspective... by not having a ritual circle at the big gatherings all you do is move the problem to the nearest settlement by the ritual site and away from the hordes of angels and militant templar types who attending the gathering and who are best equipped and motivated to keep them under wraps in the entire world. Also, being 30 miles away in no way actually causes problems for an Eidolon or undead, aside from not being able to perform any business at the meeting.
Hence Muggerwocks feel pissed off and cheated as Fallen retire due to OC boredom, rather than any actual IC action.

Being a muggerwock myself. The idea of a bunch of ideologically opposite immortal enemies who are as fully individual characters as any other PC is pure awesomemantium.
I personally love the fact that the Fallen cannot simply be hit with a sword, or even a magic sword to simply make them go away. It's a war that very hard to the point of being almost (but not quite) futile. I love the fact I've had over two years of perusing a character goal with a mixture of research gathering, experiments, covert plots, disturbing amounts of heresy, crisis of faith and finally utterly badass smitage. Due to my hard work and a lot of luck and simply being at the right/wrong place, I now have a lot of IC prestige to go with it, .

With the few unfortunate exceptions, the majority of the Eidolon players and characters I've interacted with have been absolutely great, and despite being full tilt IC, they have been very nice OC. I think Eidolons are one of the coolest features I've ever seen in a LARP system.

However for people who haven't; run headfirst into the problem with the intent of solving and fighting it to the bitter end... Eidolons often seem an irritatance that they can't dispose off, which leads to a lot of OC bitterness.
Perhaps the problem is that many people just don't want to see Eidolons in the system.

Aestar

*smack* right between the eyes. You got it in one, Tom. I don't there's really anything more to add here.

Justice · omg!!!

Nail ----> head = whacked totally correct i cant add a single word..

Bacon

I agree with 100% of what Tom says, but I think there is even more to it than that. From what I've gathered, the problem with immortals in a mortal game goes beyond the lammy vs mugger conflict.

I think it's even touching on some of the fundamental assumptions about a player-led game. People have ideas about Maelstrom as compared to the other 'big two' British fest games. At LT and CP there is no opportunity to take total control of the game, and most of the big bad guys can't be killed by normal people or traditional means.

Apparently the thing that most pisses my friends off about not being able to kill me by traditional means is that it reminds them of every 'evil' bad guy who has ever plotted against them in a plot-led game. It's not just the frustration of us knocking over their lammys, it's the frustration of having to collect and align the seven shards of flangebeast just to get rid of us...

Justice · bugger me

just read that 6 page forum post and all i can say i kind said it the day before yesterday with the rule7 post.. However i am so gonna be a mofo badass next event... got some serious tips on there...

Illithidbix

I'm tempted to copy and paste this onto rule7.
What do people think?

Bacon

Go for it. I think this discussion has points in it that were not covered by the last 'respect to eidolons' thread. And to be fair, this time we're not talking about lack of respect, we're talking about why the job is so goddamn hard that people keep quitting, which is a different discussion.

Illithidbix

Ok, posted.
Nudge me if you guys think there is something I should edit to keep a close reign on the FOIP.

Bacon · Nudge! Nudge!

Ok, I think I'd have edited the post a heck of a lot more than that before I put it on Rule 7...

The fact that you wrote the book of Varas as a demon smiting guide is kinda FOIP
The fact that I overturned peoples expectations of what an Angel can do is very FOIP
The anecdote about the guy with the Batleth could be perceived as a personal attack.

Just as a point of journalistic style, I'd have cut it down to be much shorter as well. We all play the religious game to the extreme, and are therefore happy to wade through masses of rambling to dig out the meat of truth. Rule 7 on the other hand may not want to read every anecdote about your experience of it, and it may bury the important points of your argument.

Of course, if I were thinking a little faster, I'd have recommended all this in my previous post. Sorry!

Illithidbix

Good points, I'll go and cut them out.

As for shortening it, I'll give it a try, but I think the Philosophy student in me won't let me :p

Bacon

Oh dear, a philosopher.

Well, thanks for at least taking on board my opinion that your post could be shorter Smile

I used to moderate Pagga, which is where I think the editing urge comes from. That and reading Harry Potter...

Illithidbix

One day, I may write clearly and concisely.
However I doubt it.

Alas I think my instinct to ensure my arguments and points are comprehensive enough that no slippery bastards could possibly deliberately misinterpret what I'm saying and use it against me.

And then there’s the disturbing fact the Book of Varas was written when I should have been doing my Dissertation for my Philosophy MA, and that it ended up longer than the Dissertation. Varas is even worse at writing concisely than I am (and his proof reading sucks).

Justice · It seems

It seems your post Tom, is coming up with a few really good peices of input... Good job mate.. im not going to comment because i dont think i could come up with anywhere near the intelligent responce that i believe is required after all i am evil and a little phycotic.

Illithidbix

Now now Will, I'm sure we're not all merely reflections of our Maelstrom characters,
I'm not a religious zealot , Bacon isn't a bloodsoaked vigilante and Theresa doesn't harvest the souls of impressionable geeks.

Aestar

Absolutely. No soul harvesting going on here.

Though I always found it is rather strange how my IQ (intelligence quotient) and MQ (manipulative quotient) increases by a good 30% when I'm IC...

Illithidbix · Re: Nudge! Nudge!

Respect and the Single Eidolon (very long and rambling)

omg!!!

bugger me

Nudge! Nudge!

It seems

Re: Nudge! Nudge!